From the Inside Out: With Rivkah Krinsky and Eda Schottenstein
We are momtrepreneurs and friends on a mission to transform inspiration into action. Drawing from our formal training, exclusive interviews with renowned thinkers and leaders, the wisdom of everyday heroes, and the profound insights of the Chassidic perspective, we deliver thought-provoking insights that ignite purposeful living. Join us on this transformative journey as we provide the tools, guidance, and transformative conversations you need to lead a fulfilling life and make a lasting impact on the world around you.
From the Inside Out: With Rivkah Krinsky and Eda Schottenstein
72. Unraveling the Mystery of Personality and Temperament; With Esther Friedman
Episode Sponsor: Jewish Children’s Library Fund
Contact: Reuven Rockford at 954-709-9541
Website: www.JewishChildrensLibraryFund.Com
What if you could unlock a deeper understanding of yourself and those around you to cultivate healthier, more meaningful relationships? Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we explore the fascinating world of temperament theory, communication styles, and personal growth with our insightful guest, Esther Friedman. While a Shluchah in Kansas City, Esther uses temperament theory in her coaching practice to help others recognize their own unique gifts and those of the people around them.
From the traits of Avram and Yitzchak, we gain a profound understanding of how temperament shapes our interactions and relationships. We discuss the role of chesed, Netsach, and vulnerability in relationship dynamics and the power of empathy. Delve into communication styles, the dangers of mixed messages, the complexities of equality in relationships, and how forgiveness, particularly self-forgiveness, can create healthier relationships.
In the final segments of our enlightening conversation, we underscore the importance of acknowledging our personal needs and the gifts in others. Esther's wisdom brilliantly illuminates how understanding and appreciating different temperaments can lead to personal growth, self-reflection, and the incredible value we can find in others. Embrace this journey of self-discovery, and let's explore the profound impact of temperament theory in our lives together.Mrs. Esther Friedman has been counseling people in all aspects of their personal, family and business lives for over 40 years.
After being certified by the Kiersey Temperament Theory Program, Mrs. Friedman has been employing the Kiersey Temperament Theory method as a means to help people better understand themselves and others.
In this episode, we delve into personality theory as Esther shares valuable life lessons we can learn through understanding our temperament.
If you would like to contact Mrs. Friedman or book a session, please contact her at (913) 710-1900.
For more information on temperament theory: www.kiersey.com
Book recommendation for Temperament theory:
Esther Friedman, temperament certified professional
Phone: 913-710-1900
We are all challenged all the time, every day of our life, right? Should I be doing the right thing, or should I be doing what I feel like doing, and maybe it's not the right thing? The chances for them being late are very high, because time to abstract people is very different than time to concrete people. They live in two different time worlds. But this was something that happened and it was out of my hands, so you're wrong to have the minute you do that to the person who's reacting. They have to start thinking and once you go into your rational head, you will automatically start controlling your emotion.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Rivka and I'm Ida. Welcome to, from the Inside Out now, a global community that keeps growing every day, thanks to each and every one of you.
Speaker 3:Right here is where you'll discover life-changing insights from some of the world's greatest thinkers, leaders and our everyday heroes, we believe that meaningful change comes from taking inspiration and turning it into action, In fact that's how this podcast was created in an Uber, where we were both inspired by each other's life experiences and how much we could learn from each other.
Speaker 2:We're so glad you've joined our conversation today. The path to meaningful change starts right here, right now.
Speaker 3:From the inside out. Welcome back everybody. It is so good to be back with all of you. I just actually returned from Israel and I want you to know how meaningful it was to meet all different types of people from all walks of life that are tuning in and listening to our podcast and learning together with us, growing together with us, and it just means so much to us that you're all here and that all different types of people from all around the world are joined together with us to make this world a better place, to make a difference in our own lives and spread that out towards everyone around us and in turn, that makes a difference in the world.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're thrilled to be back here in the studio after a brief summer break and excited to bring you new and fresh content that will inspire you on your growth journey and hopefully bring more joy and contentment into your day-to-day life. We also want to thank you for being a part of this community and want to share that we've had really incredible growth over the summer, even while we were out of the studio, and we are so grateful to each and every one of you for being a part of this. So thank you and welcome back.
Speaker 3:And this episode is sponsored by the Jewish Children's Library. This is actually the second time sponsoring since the first time was so successful for them. So if you have sponsored an episode, or if you never have, and you would like to please join us. We would love to partner with you and you can email us at rifkaedahgmailcom, rifkawithanh and edahgmailcom.
Speaker 2:The Jewish Children's Library Fund is a fund to help start Jewish Children's Libraries within communities all over the US and they specifically want to create new children's libraries in a community member's home so that there's a separate location besides for the school or shul where children can go and get another taste of Jewish pride and belonging. They offer matching grants and a database to get your library started.
Speaker 3:So if you or someone you know is interested in opening up a library, please text Uwe Rockford at 9547099541 and check out their website wwwJewishChildren'sLibraryFundcom, and that will be in the link in our podcast notes.
Speaker 2:They also have some cute products on their website, including a customizable acrylic Zidekha box, and when you order one of their products, you are joining the Jewish Children's Library Fund and helping start libraries too, so it sounds like a win-win.
Speaker 3:It's really amazing what an impact this sponsorship had. The first time they were our sponsor, they sent us a message that somebody had written to them when they listened to our podcast. And, edie, do you want to read it? Sure.
Speaker 2:Here it goes. I just wanted to share with you something amazing that just shows the Ashkara Pratis of Hashem. I always wanted to open a children's library, but it was always a nice dream that one day I would be Zohar to open. In my head it was just impossible. Then one day I listened to the Inside Out podcast and they were talking about your special organization. That fueled me with such a clear inner push Only after I realized how befitting this library is to honor my father who just passed away in the beginning of the year. His literal life shluchas, was chinuch and he had real messiris nafesh for it.
Speaker 2:Yesterday I was adding some new books to the database you gave us and I got up to a book called A Diamond a Day, which is the book of Hayom Yom, written for kids. I decided to read the Hayom Yom for the 22nd of Teves next Sunday, which is when I'm opening the library to the public by Ezra Hashem. I was so humbled and grateful to see what the Hayom Yom was exactly, the Hayom Yom that made you start your amazing organization. Wow, we really believe in the power of Hashem, of Divine Providence, and we've seen it. Rivka, I could speak for both of us when I say we've seen it openly and in a revealed way, which has been quite remarkable. We hope that as you listen to each episode, there's something in it that can help guide you on your path toward peace, inner contentment, joy and clarity and revealed good.
Speaker 3:And seeing the gifts that Hashem has to offer us in our lives.
Speaker 3:On that note, we have an amazing interview today and we feel that this was such a gift to be able to hear the wisdom of Esther Friedman. She gave us the gift and we are so excited about sharing that gift with you, and the episode is all about appreciating the gifts that we have in us and in the people around us. She is a Shluchah in Kansas City and she is a wife, a mother, a grandmother, and she is also a very wise person who gives amazing advice. As you'll hear in this episode, she studied Curse, the temperament theory, and she coaches people and guides people and gives them advice, and so she's a temperament certified professional. If you want to reach out for her for coaching, I think she'd be amazing 9137101900, and we'll also put that in our podcast notes. This episode is not short, but both Anita and I feel that everything she has shared here we can learn from and it'll give us it gives us a deeper understanding of ourselves, of others, and in that way we can create healthier, authentic, growth-oriented relationships.
Speaker 1:First of all, thank you. Thank you for asking me to do this. So you know, I was raised in Chabad. I was raised working for our Heights. I went through the system for seminary, went on to Erics Stroll. They there for a few years, came back with a teaching break and when I was about 21, when I was 21, when Adam Schlufts went from a very Chabad world to a non-observed world and what happened was people would come to me for questions. I was very young, I was 21, I was 22. People would come asking me questions and in their life, and I had such an experience and didn't know anything. And so I started and I always had a lot of chassidus. So I and I always enjoyed learning. So I would start reading a lot of tar stuff and also a lot of psychology and science and just to get an understanding of how to help people. And when this came up temperament theory I'm not doing this long, it's about 15 years and I'm doing this. It's not came up late. The Dr David Kirsey developed it died in the late in the 90s. So it's a fairly new. I mean it's based on a lot of old psychology but he developed it fairly recently and so when it came to my attention.
Speaker 1:I found it very, very fascinating because in chassidus, in mysticism, you learn about people being a certain type, somebody. Avram Waschessa, right, yitzchak was Gvura. So Avram Waschessa, generosity, yitzchak is Gvura, discipline, yakov is Tiferis. And you learn it, you think you understand it or you know you don't understand it. And when I started studying this, realized how fits and it was just open a world for me. That was just fascinating and it just works. It just works Understanding, you know, sciences, understanding temperaments. What does it mean when somebody is wired chessid? What does it mean somebody is wired for?
Speaker 3:Just an understanding of what temperament is Sorry when you share those, Avram Waschessa, you know, can you share with a translation of those words.
Speaker 1:So we are told, for instance, that Avram you know, the first of our fathers, Avram Waschessa is his strongest trait was generosity. He was a giver who was generous. Okay, that was his strongest trait. Yitzchak is Gvura. Yitzchak's strongest trait was discipline. Gvura is strength and discipline. Well, how does that actually show up? You don't see it so much in them. You don't see anything harsh on Yitzchak. If you go through his whole story, you see nothing harsh on him. And when we think of Gvura discipline and strength and harsh we think of it as a harsh person. You don't see any harshness on him. But in Avram you see a lot of strength and personality and sometimes he can come across harsh. So how does that happen? What is Gvura? And unless we really understand it, we don't really know what we're talking about, which I guess, when it comes to mysticism and Kabbalah, that's understood. There's a lot of stuff we don't understand, but it is so helpful. It is so helpful in understanding Everybody is everything, everyone has everything, because it corresponds to the tense virot.
Speaker 1:Okay, what does that mean? It's very hard to access what the tense virot means. Everyone has everything in it. So chesed is one of the spirit, gvura is another one. Right. Generosity, discipline, it's another one. Everyone has everything. The one that you have the most of, the one that's dominant, that's considered you. So by Avram, chesed was dominant. By Yitzchak. Generosity. By Yitzchak Gvura. Discipline, strength of will, okay, is dominant, but he also has chesed in him. He also has all the other ones. It is our wiring, it's our makeup. It's like saying, just because somebody uses their hands more than their feet, their legs, doesn't mean that they don't have legs. It means they use this more than this, but they have everything in them. And what is fascinating is being able to help people, understanding yourself and on how helping others with it.
Speaker 2:You say we all have it, one that's predominant, and the goal would be to develop the other parts so that they all have a way of expressing themselves in the right way in the right time.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And that's where relationship comes in, Because it is the difference with others that we begin to see our strength or our weakness. And now you either are you wanna develop your strength more, or you're questioning yourself, or you want to be more like them. The trick is to use it correctly, Because when we start comparing to others, we diminish ourselves. When we look at our yesterdustay self and say I wanna be a better today, I wanna be a better me today, that is a way to go forward. But if I am looking at somebody else's strength, that may not be mine at all. If I don't have a talent in music, that's not my weakness, it's not my strength. It's not my weakness.
Speaker 3:It reminds me of one of Ida and I's favorite quotes from Jordan Peterson compare yourself only to who you were yesterday, not to what someone else is today.
Speaker 1:That's yes yes, yes, that's what Tanya told you. Everyone is so different. Nobody looks like someone else.
Speaker 3:So do you think, only when we're in a relationship with someone else do we see what our dominant characteristic trait is Like? When does someone discover that?
Speaker 1:So when we're children, our dominant traits will come out. If you have a good support system towards your dominant traits, okay, then you will develop it, you will learn and you will develop them correctly. I don't really wanna say correctly Well, it would be a better word okay. But what if you are in a place where you are put down for those things that are you, but you do not know why you are being put down for it. Others don't see your strength, they don't see your gift and you are told no, or that's not the way. But your language is based on you before you can even think.
Speaker 1:That's what Tanya tells us your makeup, your spheroid, which is the wiring of your soul. How do you access your soul? Who is you? So you look into your makeup, the way you, what you want, what you enjoy, what your taste is right, why? Why do you enjoy these things? Why do you want what you want? That's before words. You cannot put them into words. It is before khachma. It's your wiring and this wiring was put into place because that's the way God wants you for your mission in life. What is your mission? We don't really know, right, but we don't know our personal mission. But over a life. We will accomplish it if we see our gift. I'll give you an example myself. I am a fairly smart person. I love learning. Okay, I hated school, Could not wait to get out of it. That's a good tool.
Speaker 3:We actually we all have something in common we all hated school.
Speaker 1:So for. But why? Why should that not be a supportive environment? What happens is is that others believe you should be different and you have no idea what they want from you, because you're coming from yourself. This is who I am. Okay, I cannot be who you want me to be. I can only be who I am, and I am not mature enough or understanding my enough of myself to be able to understand or vocalize that I don't know what you want from me, or that's not what I want to do. You want me to do that, why? Okay, what if you're not born obedient? There are children, people, born with a tendency towards obedience and there are people that are not.
Speaker 1:Here's a great example, and we have it right away from the beginning Avrahamavino. Was he born obedient? If he would have been obedient, he would have been an idol worshiper. He didn't do what his father told him is right. He woke up one day and he said this doesn't work right and he went against the whole system Until the point he's thrown into the fire. Right? Can you imagine if you had a kid, a teenager, I don't know? Whatever.
Speaker 1:You have a store on Madison Avenue. You sell the latest product, the most beautiful, what everybody wants, most expensive product, designed and it's really even the king buys by you. And then your son goes ahead, destroys the whole store. And then your father comes home because the store sold idols, and he says what happened here and he tells the story about the lady and old lady that comes with a basket. Right, the whole story. What that he tells? If he was obedient he would have been, he would never have done that. But he is wired to do what works and he realized that this doesn't work. Idol worship doesn't work. It needs to be destroyed. There is a God, so his purpose in this world was to change, to make dramatic change.
Speaker 1:Then there are people that are wired to do what's right. What's right means you're obedient, you listen to your parents, you listen to your teachers, you do good in school. Okay, now if you tell me, if I'm wired to do what works, and you tell me it's not right, and I'm thinking, what do you mean? It's not right? What's right and wrong, got to do with it. It's got to do doesn't work. Why do you expect me to do it? You see what happens here and I'm so. That is the what real relationship comes in. Relationship comes in teaching us how to become a better self, and sometimes it's a lot of pushback against us. And in life, those pushback experiences also makes us better people if we use them right, because we can empathize with other people. We can feel for other people who also go through life challenges.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm a different teacher because I hate at school. I have my students in mind. I want to enjoy the subject matter. I took my difficult experience and I was very focused when I taught and I taught high school that my the most important goal here was to get that they understand the material in a way that they can understand it. It wasn't about getting the top grade, that wasn't. It wasn't about trick questions on a test. I never did that Homework till that. You couldn't function because you couldn't spend time with your family. That's. That was so not healthy. Okay, so I became a different teacher than I probably would have been if I had loved school.
Speaker 3:Are you able to share with us, to give it a little bit of a summary of what the temperament for theory is and how you related to Hasidus?
Speaker 1:So basically there are four temperaments and this was developed by Dr David Kiersey and he bases it. He goes back in history quite, quite, quite, quite far. There are basically four temperaments and the. My love for temperaments is because people say to me there are billions of people. What's put a grouping everything into a box of four? But the great thing about four is that it is small enough, yet large enough to get a grasp on the concept. If I were to tell you there are a thousand ways of looking at things, at least knowing me, you would have lost me from the very beginning. If you say let's start four, and then from four we expand to more, and then you expand to more, now you can work. I can work with you. If you say there's just one or two, that's not enough. If you say there is even 10, it could get overwhelming. So the idea that it's broken up in four is really actually a amazing thing and in general in life, in terror, there's so many things of four.
Speaker 3:What things are in fours? Like for elephants? A mother.
Speaker 1:The four elements, the four worlds there is a concept of four can be a whole thing and then it breaks down to more, more and more and more. So even in terror there is four, there's a hundred, there is 70, but there's four. So the temperament is what you are born with. And then you have your environment. You grow up in a family, you grow up in a community, you grow up in a country and all that informs you God forbid people growing up through World War II is different than people growing up in America at the time and that will also make a difference in your life. How your parents treated you will make a difference. So everything makes the character of the person To become the full personality is just temperament. But the temperament is your wiring and that's going to make a very big difference in how you act or react to things.
Speaker 3:So can you give us a summary, in a nutshell, of each temperament type, starting with the first one, the artisan?
Speaker 1:Cessed is to be giving of yourself. Giving of yourself, though, could mean needing an audience, because if you have a need to give, there must be a recipient, but the need to give is yours. It's not about the recipient. You have need for an audience. The artisan has a need for an audience. So are they going to be social? Yes, they're going to be social people. They love being around people, and they can do it in. So the artisan is what we'll start with the artisan, about 35% of the time.
Speaker 3:The artisan relates to the sphere of Cessed.
Speaker 1:Yes, when you think of artistic talent, it is usually giving. You have to give your talent out. You can't hold it in. So if you have an artistic talent in music, you're going to compose or play. If you have artistic talent in, it can mean anything. It can be law, they'll make a remarkable lawyer, they'll make an art out of it, they'll make an art out of being a salesman. But, yes, it is the act of giving and also needing an audience, this very important element in this equation. All right, so if you think of children, you have children that need an audience. And when it means needs an audience, it's quiet. They'll make noise. Okay, they don't have.
Speaker 1:Many of them don't have Zitzflash. What would you say? Zitzflash? They don't have the ability, they're not interested in sitting quietly. So even a classroom situation makes it very hard for them. If the teachers are not hands-on, if the teacher is just standing there and teaching, teaching, teaching, they're going to lose them pretty quickly. Even if they're very smart, they're going to lose them. Okay, because it's too boring. A lot of these children are diagnosed with attention-deficit disorder or ADHD, when in fact, according to Dr David Kirstie, according to the temperaments, the idea of diagnosing somebody with attention deficit disorder. If it's a disorder, then it has to be attention deficit in everything they do. But if they can focus on something for a half hour or two hours but not on other things, then the problem isn't attention. You see what that means. They will actually. They can focus two, three hours on something that they're very interested in. So how is it that that's attention deficit disorder, but we call it that.
Speaker 3:So it's boredom. What so? It's boredom, it's boredom.
Speaker 1:Yeah or less of interest, or whatever. Then you've got to be interested. Yes, or they just want to have fun or they want to be moving. They want to be out there moving, or they want to do something else. But, yes, they do not have an interest. And if you don't have an interest, some people, some kids, can sit quietly, but some can't. They have to move. They'll be the most creative doctors, they'll be creative lawyers, no matter what they choose to do.
Speaker 1:Creativity is on the right, in the spirit, in Chachma, okay, and it comes together with generosity. And then it comes together with Netsach, which perseverance. So that type of personality has a very hard time showing vulnerability. There are people who cannot, who have a very hard time showing. I like that Because it's Netsach. Your Netsach is very strong. You have to persevere, you have to win, and vulnerability is the opposite of Netsach.
Speaker 1:You think, when you learn better, you realize that vulnerability is key in relationship, because if you cannot be vulnerable in a relationship, then how can you have a relationship? Who can have a relationship with somebody that has no vulnerabilities? How do you open up, how do you get to a person's kishkis if there's no vulnerability? Even God shows his vulnerabilities it's so fascinating and learn to her by the flood. But he regrets. God regrets, right? It says he didn't know. But that's relationship. You must show vulnerability. If Hashem wants a relationship, he has to show his vulnerability too. Of course there is different. The vulnerability is within the relationship, not within God, do you understand? Well, we're going to something much deeper. My point is here. Vulnerability is a crucial relationship and they have a hard time with that. But if I understand, that's the way I'm made up, that's my makeup. I know where it's coming from and now I can work on it. I can better it. I can use it smartly. I can be mature about it. I can use it well.
Speaker 3:Can we hear a little bit about the second type of person, the guardian?
Speaker 1:The guardian is the child that is born by nature, disciplined by nature. This child will be disciplined. They will do what's right, they will listen and do what they're told to do. Now, everyone everyone has the need to live and to survive. So even a child who is told to do what they need to do, but it'll affect their survival, may choose not to do that and it may be show up in different ways. If the mother's too hard on them or the father's too hard on them, they may push back. It depends. Sometimes they will let it happen and it could be very difficult that way too.
Speaker 1:But by nature they are children that are disciplined. They listen, they are easy children. When they're young, they're easy children so when they get older. So then it depends when they get. It could be during later teenage years and into adulthood. Sometimes it's hard adjusting to adulthood because a child that does what's right and gets very positive feedback, it's smooth sailing where they're younger. For many children, if there's no trauma and if nothing terribly wrong happened and now they have to face adulthood and a lot of things will pop up that they're just not even.
Speaker 2:If you're good, you can be treated wrong, they're probably more at risk for being manipulated and taking advantage of when they're older.
Speaker 1:They are at risk. They are more trusting, but and some of them can be taken advantage of and some of them will push back more, depending on what type they are within that character but they will be much more sensitive personally, much more offended, insulted, hurt Okay, but it's more offended and insulted and disappointed than the artisan child who moves with. They'll shrug and walk away or they'll move with it, unless it's a big thing. Okay, they're also used to adapting. The artisan child is used to adapting to situations because they have to figure out how it's going to work for them. If they don't want to do something, they're going to find how to get out of it in a funny, smiley or other way. You know they'll yell and scream, but they have adapted to their what their desires are and how to get it out of others. They have lived that way through their life. Okay, artisans are generally mischievous children. Okay, there is a certain mischievousness. Some of them are very easy going, but they could still be a little mischievous. So there's going to be a pushback if you don't have that in you and you're the nice kid or the obedient kid, right, you know. And then you take an advantage of and then you resent it and then you and you also have to learn how to adapt to other people. So it's a little bit that it can be great students but not good teachers, because they had no trouble in school and then they get up to teach and they have a hand. They have a classroom of different kids and they don't know how to deal with it as much. Okay, now, sometimes they can be great teachers. Sometimes they meet and I'm not saying, I'm not saying this all across the board, it's just different. They are very hardworking.
Speaker 1:Which one? The Guardian? They, they're wonderful. Guardian is very hardworking. The cornerstone society. We would not be able to get things done. My kids in my house, the ones if I can't find something, 100% chance that the one who found it will be the Guardian. I always knew which are the ones that's on time, the ones that's organized. Yeah, the 100% chance. Yeah, I learned just to go to that. Okay, you know, if I need something found, they'll find it. They're. They have that persistence and that that discipline.
Speaker 3:Guardian. Guardian is Gvora in the spirit.
Speaker 1:Yes, see, people think of Gvar as harsh. They're not necessarily harsh. They may the harshness will come. We have both a nephropsychobarmus and a nephropsychocase. We have an animal soul, we have a godly soul. The spheroids of the godly soul are refined godly sphero to only want what God wants. They want for the benefit of the person, the benefit of God, the benefit of the other.
Speaker 1:The animal soul, which we use to survive, which we need for survival, to exist, thinks about itself. So it very simple. What is the Yatesahara? The Yatesahara is the pull of the animal soul. The pull of the animal soul is me, self gratification, self preservation. It's always me. Even if I do, it's for reward, it's me, and you know I'm giving you a gift because I want something back for you, so from you. So it's a nice gesture, it's better than doing something bad, but it's still not truly for you. The godly soul is about God. It's about the godly element of us, about doing for someone else Right. It's about saying no, I need to think of someone else now.
Speaker 1:So the animal soul also has spheroids. We don't call them by the same name, but it's the same concept. So the compole is one way or the other. So in Ghvorah. It can be very harsh and you can use it for negative. But you can use generosity for negative. Chesed can be very cruel if it's used wrong and Ghvorah can be very cruel, and not only that. Again the word. They're not called spheroids. It's a little different in the names but the concept of generosity of chesed. It's sometimes even crueler than the harshness of Ghvorah.
Speaker 1:Because he says, yes, a true narcissist, okay, a true narcissist, who is smiley and so nice and so giving, but actually totally manipulating. And now you can't figure out what's going on. They're so wonderful, they're so nice, they're so giving, but something's wrong because you're being totally manipulated, ghvorah. Well, if, ghvorah, the chances with Ghvorah is that if they're harsh, they'll be harsh. You'll know at least what you're dealing with. You see, you don't, it doesn't change one day. And then they suddenly they're sorry, they're so nice and wonderful, and the next day they're cruel. And then they're nice and wonderful. And you see, it's a different style of narcissistic behavior. Narcissistic behavior everybody can have because we all think of ourselves. But it's different in chesed than it is in Ghvorah. It's much more calculated and manipulated. But I don't want to go into the negativity.
Speaker 2:Next, Even something like, maybe more subtle, like people pleasing, you know, and somebody's just doing something for someone else, like saying yes so that that person will like, like them or they can get in their good meaning they're doing it, or for social climbing or things like that. They're not doing it because they're genuinely. It's not genuinely coming from their nepheshah. Like kiss, would you say. That's also misplaced, chesed or like similar to the narcissist, it could be.
Speaker 1:That can be in any type. That could be in any type, because we have a need for social advancement. We have a need to be viewed well by others, and to be viewed well by others could be on earth, could be monetary, could be. Everyone has that need in every single type. So and then in terms of accommodating, every type has an accommodating type. So if you're going to be an accommodator that's an artisan you're not going to like conflict, you may walk away from it. If you're going to be an art guardian, that doesn't like conflict, you just won't voice your opinion. Each one and each type you will have.
Speaker 1:So to define that as chesed is hard, because each type will have similar, because we're all human. But when we talked about harshness, we look at the word, we say harshness, but the reality is that people who are refined Gavura are actually very kind people. They're humble. They're humble and in their humility can be very kind. And then you can have different. They're different, whereas chesed has a much greater need for an audience and that can actually impose on others, but on the other hand, they're very generous people. So each one has its wonderful and each one has its challenge.
Speaker 3:Is the goal is the truth is we want to get through all four of them, but I just want to focus on the chesed and the Gavura. Is the goal to have both of them equally.
Speaker 1:I don't think that is possible. We are wired with everything. Everyone has tense spirit. The one that is dominant is what you say. That is you. So, for instance, we say Abram is chesed. That is dominant in him. Did he have Gvura? Did he have Deferit? Did he have Natsuk? Did he have all the others? Absolutely, but because he was the line of chesed, so chesed and Netsach, which is the one under chesed, will be more dominant, whereas in Yitzchak you would have Gvura and Hode. Hode is humility. Yitzchak was very humble. You don't even hear about him that much. There's a lot of humility in him, whereas Abram it's not a lack of humility, god forbid. It's just he was out there. I'm not Yakov Abram. Abram was out there and each one had to do that for their mission and life Right.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, but then Yakov is a combination of the two, so Yakov now is a combination, but if you can think of Svirot, it's center, that's what Deferis is a center. Now, in both the sides, you know chesed and Gvura artisan I'm going to do the English artisan and guardian are 75% of population and they're concrete thinkers. So they think about what is, what you can touch, what you can hear, what you can see, about what's in front of them. When you come to now the center, the center are more abstract. Okay, that's the. So the idealist is about 15% of the population.
Speaker 3:That's the third one. The third one is idealist.
Speaker 1:Yes, and their focus is is relationship. And even in Kabbalah and Chesed, when you talk about Deferis, Deferis is the relationship between generosity, chesed and discipline. It's always trying to figure out when do you have to stand up and be firm, when do you have generosity Right? It's always and it creates empathy. Empathy is yeah, this was not the right thing to do, but you know what? You're human, You're sorry. It's enough that you're sorry, I don't have to make it harder on you. It's that empathy, it's judgment. You're right, You're right, You're wrong, You're wrong, All right.
Speaker 1:So I'll give you an example of Chesed that a very wealthy man here in town. He's gone already quite a few years and people he's told a story about him he was, he was driving downtown in Kansas City and he saw this person in very it was very cold outside and he saw this person sitting on one of those rails you know on there where the steam comes up from and he was warming himself by the steam, and so he stopped his driver in a chauffeur, a chauffeur he stopped the driver, the driver. He got out, took his mink coat and gave it to the man to warm himself and gave it to him and drove away. A remarkable act of generosity, Remarkable Right, and I don't want to make any judgment because it's a remarkable act of generosity. So there's no judgment on this.
Speaker 1:But take it apart, what are the chances that that coat staying with him? What are the chances he'll be killed for that coat, Right? So going getting him a cheap, cheap jacket three of them to wear one on top of the other, you understand, would have made me done a lot more for him had he gone into discipline. Is this smart? Is this good? What benefit? What does the man need? Not what do I need to give?
Speaker 3:Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's where relationship matters, because many times he's so generous, so generous, but that's not what I wanted. You see how confusing that they're showering you with gifts but that's not what I want. But it takes you a while to realize that that's not really what you want. Sometimes it is what you want and you're very appreciative. So it depends. It depends on the situation, but these are different things that can come up. You can have even in the Guardian giving a gift that they think you ought to have.
Speaker 2:For example. I love example, I mean I would. I would imagine that that happens quite a bit in relationships as well, where look how much I'm doing for you and then the person feels like, well, not the way that I want it to be done. So how do you, how do you navigate that? How do you have that, that conversation with someone? So different.
Speaker 1:So that's you know, in terms of temperament theory, when I work with couples, I that comes out all the time. You know I do so much, I do so much and they don't appreciate it. And the other one is, of course, I appreciate it, but look what I do. I do this, this, this and this and. But. But even so, who are we doing this for? So you aren't doing the dishes, so you aren't doing the laundry, but you're doing it for the family. You're doing it for everybody. You're not doing it for me personally.
Speaker 1:Now, women sometimes are faced with that more, not always. I shouldn't say that it works both ways, actually, but because many times the husband will come home and say, you know, I bring the income, I do everything, should there be a meal on the table, and maybe he's right, he's exhausted, tired, where is that active service that I need, or not where? But I need that active service and and, and I need it in this relationship, and when you have something on the table and I get home, I know you're thinking of me, okay, and she can say money that you can, and she can say doing this for the family. You're not just doing this for me, right, but he's saying, if he says this is what you need, not enough that I bring home the money, that's a problem. If he says I bring home the money but I do need and I do need that meal, that he's made me very clear what the active service he needs to be done. The problem I feel I'm doing it for you and you don't appreciate it because you come back and say that's not for me, it's for the family. So when we do that you have to keep it. You really have to keep an account what the other one needs, and here temperament will tell you what each one needs. So that's really fascinating.
Speaker 1:We have the five love languages. Some need touch. It'll be the number one thing of the five. Everyone needs all five. But for some touches at the top and for some touches at the bottom, for some acts of service will be number one and for some that will be number three, okay. For others it'll be word of affirmation, right, everything. And that's where temperament comes in and really shows you different people have different needs and different, different understanding of things, and we all start from the point of what Kirstie calls the BLM syndrome.
Speaker 1:Be like me, so I imagine what you need is really what I need. How often does somebody say no, that's not what you mean? I once had this conversation with somebody was asking somebody to do something for me and they said, no, that's not really what you need. And I said that is what I need. And they said, no, that's not really what you want. I said, no, that is really what I want. And again, and you know what happened In the end I hung up. I said goodbye, thank you, there was nothing I can do here to bring you back. Can I ask?
Speaker 3:you something? How did you learn? Because you said in the beginning of the conversation that you really learned how to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. How did you learn to do that? What was the key for you?
Speaker 1:So again. So let's go on now We'll do one more and we'll go back. So you have. Well, we didn't finish on the idealist.
Speaker 1:The idealist I'm very, very sensitive. It's the element of Tiferous. The element of Tiferous thinks about the person, because empathy has to be empathy, sympathy is always about the other person. Right, right, they can feel other people's emotions. They can even know other people's thoughts. So when you know people start talking like that, you think they're crazy, but they're not. Some of them can be, but they're not. It's just so far fetched from people that are concrete that they can't even not only they can't even grasp it, they don't even think it's true. Okay. So it puts them in an odd position because people don't believe them or don't. They're different, they're very different.
Speaker 1:All right, very sensitive as children, very, very sensitive and, as adults, very sensitive. They will usually put somebody before themselves and then they could get very hurt. So it's a confusing situation sometimes for them. They are very, they're loving children and need that from those around them. Again, they're sensitive. Both the guardian and the idealist are both sensitive in different ways. They are the idealist's children, are heart. There's drama in heart, so you can have. They can be quite dramatic when something happens. Again, though, it has to be identified. Right, you know. It's one thing when you know what you're looking at. It's another thing when you don't.
Speaker 3:And the idealist as an adult.
Speaker 1:Also very fine. They're very fine, very in need of relationship. Sometimes they go too deep in relationship. Yep, you know, for their own health need to be a little careful, but very adela, generally adela people. And then you have the rational. The rational is also an abstract thinker. The idealist is an abstract thinker. The rational is an abstract thinker. Idealists are 15% of the population, rationalists 10% of the population. Now we're rounding that off because it's really less. Rationalists are a little bit more, rationalists are a little bit less, but we're rounding that off. And rationals are abstract also, but ideational. So I mean, how many people would think of the theory of relativity? I mean you have to be very abstract to go with it, right? And yet he'd have to Einstein, right, and he had to call his wife to find out where he needs to go. So the concrete is so far from him but the abstract is so close to him. That's the world he lives in, so abstract.
Speaker 1:People live in their head a lot, whether it be in the emotional element, the emotional one, or in the rational element. They live in their head and they miss especially rationales will miss cues, they'll miss things and they will be considered absent minded. I was giving a class. I had this class of women and they were all very accomplished, you know, doctors and CEOs and very accomplished women. And there was this one woman in the class, a wonderful psychologist, and invariably she would walk out of the class, come back five minutes, three minutes later and couldn't find her keys one time, two times, and it's very embarrassing. Okay Right, you feel like an idiot and you're a doctor and you're a very accomplished doctor. So one time she walked back into class and she's really so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:So I decided I was going to do this and I was hoping it would come out right. And they knew that I am trained in tamper and theory. So I said to her you know, most people live in the concrete world but you live in the abstract world. You live in the world of relationship In the world. She was a very good doctor In the world of relationship. You get it. You understand Many people can't do that.
Speaker 1:Many concrete people can't do that. But it looks like you're flaky In your world. You're not flaky. You get so focused on what you're thinking about and how do we help people and how to deal with people that the keys aren't so important and you forget where you put them, and I can tell you that concrete people are very flaky in the abstract world, but because 75% of them are concrete, you think this is normal, right? So here's the deal. You're going to be forgetful. There's nothing you can do about that, but you don't have to be forgetful for everything. So if you took your keys and you designated a certain pocket in your purse and you will not put them anywhere else, you train your brain hold on to that key from the minute you get out of the car and you're going to put it into that absolutely that designated pocket. You will not lose your keys again.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the goal is not to change, it's really to accommodate.
Speaker 1:Right, right. You have to accept the fact that because I am in my head, if that's where you are, if you're going to be, that's the way you're wired, you're not going to be so in tune to the concrete world. The chances for them being late are very high because time to abstract people is very different than time to concrete people. They live in two different time worlds. Okay, so the concrete person is used to this. The abstract person has to be trained, has to train themselves. Okay, so sometimes I will know before I even do an assessment. The chances of somebody is because how late they show up.
Speaker 2:We had a. We used to have guests who always came like two hours late for Shabbos meals and we decided to just start inviting them separately because it just it wasn't changing me and like I guess what you're saying it makes perfect sense, because it's hard to assume that they can change, but you can maybe hopefully try to work to accommodate it.
Speaker 1:Right. So what you see is what is? That's another thing People are not ready to accept. Many times you look at your child and the way they're behaving. This is them. Now we have to figure out is this good for them? Do you have to do it? Does it need a change? I mean, it's always good for them, but how are they using it well? If this is who they are, then this is the way they're meant to be. Are they using it well? And that's how you guide them. Don't try to change them. You cannot. We do that. I mean, we're all guilty that we start parenting With absolute no experience. I don't think that janitor, the janitor of anywhere you know, or the sanitation guy, starts out with no experience. And yet, the most important job of parenting, we start out with absolute no experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's something to think about, Like. I mean, I do think about it because I started off at 18.
Speaker 1:Who set it up that way? Who set it up that way?
Speaker 3:But I do think now Wait, you didn't answer me who set it up. God, god set it up, god, it's meant to be that way.
Speaker 1:We need to. We learn on the job and what are the chances you'll make mistakes. Men very high, 100% make mistakes if you learn on the job.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of stuck at. When do I work on changing versus accommodating? So, for example, like I would imagine, my temperament is more chasset. I think it is, and right. I want to be able to address difficult situations, whether it's business related disputes or issues that require a certain level of assertiveness and confrontation, but that's not my nature, it's not my temperament.
Speaker 1:You learn to do it. You have the ability, but you need to learn to do it. So you work with somebody who can teach you the right words the right way. Had a woman that I worked with her for a long time. She came from a very dysfunctional home and that only makes it worse, because you're so unsure of yourself and you don't even, and then you have to pass it on to your children and you don't. She was just having to work through her own issues with her own parents and the dysfunction and now being a parent herself.
Speaker 1:And it usually shows up, you know, not the first year. It shows up when the kids are starting to grow up and she would take notes exactly how to say and I'm saying it's your language, it's not my words, no, she needed it. And she would practice and practice, and practice and then after a while she absolutely got the hang of it and the change in her was so remarkable. The problem was she was intimidated, she didn't trust herself. Okay, so it wasn't only that she was an accommodator, she didn't trust herself and she also felt, because she came from such a dysfunctional home, that in order to keep it, by keeping the peace, it will make the dysfunction better. It'll at least not make it more dysfunctional. So it became a pattern of behavior growing up and she felt that worked. She was the good kid, the one that the parent didn't have to blame and work with and the one that parent relied on, right.
Speaker 1:But now she gets into a relationship and you can't function like that. You can't function like that with your husband or your children, because where's the end? At least with parents, you grow up and you leave the house right. But you can't get out of a dysfunctional family and then a dysfunctional and make your home life dysfunctional as a parent, as a wife, and then parenting it. There's no end over there. So it has to stop at some point. And you can't keep blaming your parents because, guess what, they were also your age when this started.
Speaker 1:How do you blame your parents when you're already older than them? If you're blaming your mother when she was 25, well, guess what, you're 40 now. How are you blaming your mother now? If you wanted her to take accountability, why aren't you taking accountability? You can't continue blaming your parents into adulthood. You have to work it through. That's very important. But you have to get rid of the blame. They're human. They've had their own lives to deal with. So now, if it comes that hard, the thing that I find very effective is practice. You go actually through situations through situation practice, and it was astonishing Not only to see the change in her. What was astonishing for her was to see the respect now that she acquired from people. People didn't hear her before, they didn't hear her, and suddenly they had to listen. They had to listen because she was very nice person. She didn't become very aggressive, but she wasn't a Schmack anymore, right.
Speaker 2:So sometimes I wonder, like in our relationship here in the podcast, like me and Rivka, so she'll ask the tougher questions and she'll deal with some of the more difficult issues that come up, knowing that I do like that side of her and I would want to develop that side of the part of myself. That's like that. How much of that should I focus on?
Speaker 1:By the same token, do you admire your accommodating self?
Speaker 2:I do. I see the value in it and that's the thing. I definitely see the value in it and I think that's the trick.
Speaker 1:That's the trick that you admire in each other.
Speaker 3:Because I admire and other things that I don't have. But I also think that we have similarities that we relate to.
Speaker 1:That's true too. So many times people will say I am to this and I wish I wasn't that, and no, no, no. If this is what you are, then this is the gift God gave you and this is what you need to fill your mission. Can you temper it? Can you lessen it? Can you strengthen it? Can you Sure you need to use it for good, and that's how you learn to use it for good. So you even think of a rate of a talent, an artist. Okay, they sit there hours and days, and days and days, and they make mistakes. They do this, they do that. They have to learn to perfect it.
Speaker 1:You write a book, it's the same thing. Your music, it's the same thing. How much more? So ourselves? You have to work within and perfect it, and we make our mistakes. And then you wipe it off and you start. You know, but the fact that one is more accommodating and one is more direct and more assertive, each thing has its benefits. Working together is where you get maximum, because you can be both equally assertive and equally accommodating. It's just too much. I mean, you can't.
Speaker 3:I actually think that, because you said like appreciating the gift, I think that part of why we work well together, because I think we both appreciate the gifts in each other. I appreciate the gifts you have and I feel that you appreciate the gifts that I have and that's why we're able to work together well together. Maybe in other relationships it's hard because we don't appreciate the gift in the other person that we don't have.
Speaker 1:Could be, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Excellent, that's very good. What if there's the way I am, not me, but the way a person is? And then there's often, like the way the person wants to be and they want to change something. And, assuming that we're born with our temperament and then over time, with you know our social conditioning and all the stuff around us, we're nurtured into becoming a certain way. So if there's the way I am and the way I want to be, how do I know which one is really me, meaning that there's not like something or trauma, it's both me?
Speaker 1:Sure, because we are wired to grow, we are wired to be better, we are wired to invest in life, in ourselves. That's the difference of eating from the tree and not eating from the tree. Like, why did the Shem make this world? Where? Think about it when you're learning Tanya, and it talks about a bananyi, okay, and you talks about a rush of you know, rush of a taubili, rush of a rala, but in, according to Tanya, most of us more than I mean almost everybody okay, is what it would call a rush of a taubili. A rush of a taubili is a person who struggles, struggles to do the right thing. They do the right thing a lot, maybe even maximum, but there is still that little voice that pushes them, maybe to do something wrong. Right, and there are degrees. We are all challenged all the time, every day of our life. Right? Should I be doing the right thing, or should I be doing what I feel like doing it? And maybe it's not the right thing.
Speaker 1:And you think, why did the Shem create such a world? Why didn't he make it easier for us to do the right thing? To be meant? But the beauty, the remarkable thing about this is that that is the world that Shem wants. He wants us to invest in our lives and by us investing and making the choices and growing, we are actually creating the big picture of the world that Shem wants. Because you could have had it perfect, right, why did he need this pain? But no, he wants people who actually do change, do grow, do refine themselves. That's really perfection in this world, because true perfection is only God, nobody else. It's impossible. He created a world for us to make mistakes. How can you be perfect? Because he created a world for us to learn from experience, for us to learn to be better. Okay, so can you change? Yes, can you become nicer? Can you not recognize yourself now from the 10 years ago? Yes, but your wiring doesn't change. You still can have more chesed or more gvura. However, you change will be within the parameters of your wiring.
Speaker 3:The woman that you just described that worked on herself and everyone started to listen to her. Once she worked on herself, she changed. Maybe because she worked so hard on that thing, that thing ends up becoming more dominant. Does that happen, or do you know what I'm saying? She's worked so hard that it's become no.
Speaker 1:Her strength. What became was her weakness. Now she learned to make it her strength. In this particular case, she used her strength as a weakness. Now there is a reason for it and it makes sense. She grew up in a dysfunctional home. She didn't the cues and the lessons and everything she got was some of it was crazy. How does a three-year-old know what's right and wrong, even if they're wired to do the right thing, only what their parents tell them? But if the home is dysfunctional, then it's what are the messages that she's been getting? And now she's 30 and she can't decipher all these messages because some of them make no sense. But this is what she was told, or this is what worked for her.
Speaker 1:You think about God forbid a child in the camps. A way to protect themselves may be very different well, for sure, be very different than in society, but they may not know how to adapt. It's too ingrained, the trauma is too much, so now they have to. So they took it to protect themselves. So now you have to learn how to use it to protect yourself differently. It's the same person. You don't become a different you. You're the same person. Maybe we'll see you in the street. You have the same looks you have. You're the same person. That's what it means. By wiring it's as if you're asking me if a person can change. Well, I now not be Rivka, I will be Sara. Does Rahul be Isaiah? What?
Speaker 3:My name is actually Sara Rivka. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking the mothers. You know, okay, good, so can the Sara become? You know, the Sara become Rivka, the Rivka become Leia. That doesn't happen. You become better, you become mature, you grow, you become the person you want to be.
Speaker 3:So you're saying the dominant feature, one of these four things, is always there, but you become better at that and you also explore the other parts of you, right?
Speaker 2:Right, like people are, often they treat their loved ones differently than their friends. Let's say you know like we're harder on the people that we love, isn't that? Amazing. What does that mean from a temperament view?
Speaker 1:I think there are some temperaments that will do that more than others and I mean it's more prone a certain time. More prone to that because they don't see the damage of it, they don't see the fallout. With a friend, the friend will walk away. But a spouse doesn't, a child doesn't, a parent does right. So the chance of losing is much greater with a friend. These people truly, truly understand abuse. It, lose it, okay, but they don't think that they may be abusing their close ones and they also don't think, even if they are, that they're going to lose them. But if they know they're going to lose somebody, they'll be much more careful.
Speaker 3:You okay. Is that what it is? Is that because they're scared of losing the person or because they're just it's not about scared of losing somebody.
Speaker 1:It's that instinctive understanding of how I need to relate to this one or to this one, based on what I want the outcome to be. So if I am wanting a certain outcome with a friend that I that will just shrug and say, you know, I don't need this, I may be much more careful than with a child or a spouse that won't do that to me and at that point I want to get what I want to get, okay. So and I don't think it goes into so much thought, because if it's your wiring, you move into that very easily. This is your language.
Speaker 1:How much time do you spend thinking about every word you say in the language that you're familiar with? In the language that you're not familiar with, you start thinking about every word you're going to say, right? So if it is within your wiring to do that to be harder on your own than on others and it's not the right words to be harder on our own than on others the right way to look at it is they believe that you belong to them. So if you belong to me, then I can do with you what I want because you belong to me. Okay, but the friend in the neighbor doesn't necessarily. You see, sometimes they can do to them too, but they'll be more careful.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:But many times they don't even realize they're doing it and they move into it very quickly. They move into our own personal language of our temperament, without thinking. Just like I'm not thinking of every word, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:And maybe there's more of an opportunity to be triggered in closer relationships.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I actually wanted to ask you about triggers in a relationship let's maybe talk about a parent and child, or it could be perhaps a husband and wife that you have a character trait that's more dominant and it's actually not bad, but for some reason whether because of a trauma from the past or because they're not like that they're triggered by certain parts of your personality. Do you think that that should be suppressed or to try and stop to try and tone down your personality in that way, because you are in a relationship with people that you love and they're triggered by it?
Speaker 1:I think that it's very important to have a discussion, Because what exactly are they triggered by? Do you really know? Just because they say this is a trigger doesn't mean you truly understand what they're saying. And then, why is it a trigger? So if the parent is doing something that they really should think about more, maybe it's an immature behavior, then wait a minute. Maybe it does need to be corrected. If this is the way you are to expect someone to talk differently because this is the way they talk, here's an example.
Speaker 3:There are people.
Speaker 1:That fall into two categories. All people fall into two categories You're either directive or you're informative. If you are directive, you tell it like it is. If you're informative, you inform If people want to hear it the way it is from others also, and sometimes they struggle with informative people because they don't understand what they're saying, because they're informing.
Speaker 1:Here's an example the wife says to the husband I'm going to the supermarket, I'll be back in an hour. And he says my favorite drink is Coke. She gets in the car, she's driving to the student. It's a true story. He gets in the car and drives to the store. And what did he just say? My favorite drink is Coke. Where did that come from? What was he saying? It sounds silly, can't figure it out. Goes to the store. Goes to the store and gets everything. Comes home, he helps her unpack and he goes no Coke. She said you wanted Coke. Why didn't you tell me? He said I think I did. I told you my favorite drink is Coke. I couldn't figure out why. You said it to me. And he's like well, why would I say it to you if I didn't want you to buy it? You know what? Do me a favor Next time. Tell me exactly. Baruch al-Bidhaq time. Tell me exactly. Please buy me some Coke. Can you please get some Coke? And the one that's informative just doesn't like. Why does it have to? It's so direct, it grates on you, ok.
Speaker 1:Another story Husband is traveling, is in New York and they're living out of town and she says to him do you need? She calls, I arrive and everything. And she says you have to pick up this, you have to pick up that, you have to this. And he says I don't have to anything, ok. And she's whoa, they're living in a stucco, they need stuff. He's in New York and he says I don't have to do anything. And she stops you know what she's going to do now. And then he says but you know, when I'm Kingston Avenue, it's not a problem, I can stop buying in the store.
Speaker 3:So that's great.
Speaker 2:OK. That's really good.
Speaker 1:Now, when she says you have to get this, you have to get this, she's not telling you what to do, because the minute he said I don't have to do anything, she stopped. Okay, he doesn't want to do it, and I can't force him. What she was saying is this is what needs to be done. You're in New York, this is what we need, okay, but what was he? What was he having a hard time with the way she was talking?
Speaker 3:He didn't like her style of talking.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? I have to, what is this? I have to, I have to, I have to. But that's not what she meant. The problem now is, if she's very directive and now she has to get into informative mode, it's very hard for her because isn't the language that she speaks. See, you're making an assumption that I am forcing you into a situation, but I'm not doing that. I have no intent of doing that. This is the way I talk and you don't believe me. I'm pushing you around, but I talk this way, and if I have to now figure out how to be informative even though everyone can be both, it takes a lot of work and the chances are you're going to do a worse job. So you're not going to get it right.
Speaker 3:So the other person needs to learn how to understand that this is the best style of talking.
Speaker 1:Now here's the deal with informative people. They're informative. They don't fully understand sometimes what they want from you. Or even if you do, they say it in such a way like my favorite drink is Coke, or they say it in such a way that it gives you know maybe I should do it, maybe I don't want to do it, maybe I can't do it. It's not said so directly that I have to do it, right, but they absolutely expect you to do it, and when you don't, they're not happy. They may be nice about it, but they're not happy. So look at the difference. The person that's directive may not be expecting you to do it, but you're offended by the way they say it, and the person who is informative expects you to do it, right.
Speaker 3:But they're not doing it because you haven't been.
Speaker 1:But now you have a. You also have a relationship problem here, because I told you and I was so nice and I don't impose, and you don't hear me, so neither of them have a problem.
Speaker 2:It's just not understanding each other. That's the problem.
Speaker 1:So it's tantrum and theorists like whoa, and many times I'll say that you're not hearing what they're saying. They're not, they're not imposing on you at all. This is the way they talk. You want them to talk like you had a parent, call me about child, a teenage child, and they were so frustrated and angry at their child and couldn't even have a positive relationship because the child is so chutzpid, okay. And they go on and on about the child's chutzpid and I say wait, wait, wait, hold on what is the chutzpid? And they tell me that they don't respond to me. They answer back.
Speaker 1:I said give me an example, tell me what they do. I'll ask him if he could you know, would you take? This is the wording. I'll ask him you want to take out the garbage? And he says no. I said I didn't hear any foot foot. She goes. What do you mean? He said no. You asked him if he wants to take out the garbage. No, he doesn't want to do it. Why don't you just tell him to take out the garbage and then we will see if there's foot foot. You see the difference.
Speaker 1:And she had to learn to talk to this child differently and when she asked him to do it. He did it. On the other hand, she also had to learn to see him as the person he is. Okay, he's not going to be who she wants him to be Ever. He is a whole different person. She had such a hard time wrapping her head around it and needed to know how to let go, how to allow him his space, how to allow him to do the things he wants to do, because anyway he's going to do it. So what's the difference? And still have a good relationship with it and the whole relationship.
Speaker 1:It turned around To the point where the child after a few years apologized but if you think I'm Chutzpah, I have nowhere to go with this relationship, because now you have just labeled me. You don't understand me, you don't get me, I don't even know what I'm saying to you, because I'm walking on eggshells, because whatever I say, maybe it's Chutzpah, maybe it's not. I don't know what you want from me and I am me. I have my own makeup. You see that. And then it, and many times parents, parents, push back. I can't see that my child is really that way. You have to accept the fact. People are, why you're differently.
Speaker 2:It's so confusing to be able to differentiate between what do I need to change in order to improve my relationship with others and how do I stay steadfast in what I do, knowing that I'm You're right, being the best parent, best spouse, best friend that I can be and improve my relationships. It's very to me at least, it's a fine line. It's hard to be able to take the two apart.
Speaker 1:A couple of years ago I got a call from my mother. She's really, really struggling with her child. The child's about five or six and they're having a very hard time. They get, they explode, they're having tantrums or you know, or they're angry. I should say they're angry. A seven-year-old child would say okay, a five-year-old, seven, whatever. And she says I'm so careful with the child, I'm so careful not to say any bad word, I'm so careful and I'll tell him. I'll give you five more minutes. I have all this. You know I'm and she's being very patient and very understanding and using the right words, and then nothing helps. So I said to her you think you're doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:The problem is that the child is getting mixed messages. The child feels your attention. They know you're having a hard time. They know you don't like this behavior, but you're being so nice on the outside and they don't know what's going on here. They see you say one thing, but they feel something different. Be honest, stop having so much patience and tell them.
Speaker 1:This is not behavior that is acceptable. I understand you're upset and I'm saying something's bothering you. Either we discuss it or we work out a way to make it work. Are you hungry? Are you tired? Are you upset? Something happened in school. But let's get it. But I'm not. The behavior is not acceptable. This is not the way you respond and I'm not going to put up with it. You have to make that clear. I am not going to put up with it. But I don't know if you have to use those words Now.
Speaker 1:The child knows exactly where they stand. They can feel their mother's tension, but she's so nice, she's so patient. You see what happens? It's a mixed message and they have no idea what you're talking about. And they are so confused because they can't even tell you what their dilemma is. They can't tell you what's bothering me. I can't say my you're not being honest, because I don't even know how to talk like that when I'm five or seven, right, I don't know that it's my mother's emotions that I'm feeling. I just know something's wrong here, my mother's not being honest, okay. So a lot of times that kind of reaction is not the right way. It's not the helpful way.
Speaker 1:I don't think we should just be yelling or kids or anything like that. But we need to be honest, you need to be honest, and we need to look at the behavior and say children, children are children. They will have negative behavior. Our job is to show them how to live healthy, how to use this, because they won't get away with it when they're 15. No friend is going to put up with what a mother puts up with, so teach you see that he's.
Speaker 1:On the other hand I mean we're going in different directions here. On the other hand, this concept today of being a voter you know the people translate the voter the voter means give up or give in. So you have a toy you just got, you're playing with a toy, your friend, your sister, whatever comes over your brother, and they want your toy and they're throwing a tantrum because they want your stuff and you don't want to give it. You want to play and then you're told, being a voter, give it up, give in, be the nice. Who's going to be the nice person If we are careful with that? Because as we get into more of this, you'll see how dangerous that can be, especially for girls.
Speaker 1:You have to teach a child to share, be nice, okay, if you're competitive in a game, if you're always need, if you always need to win, you're going to lose friends. So if you're wired, people are wired to win. They are wired that way from birth. They don't understand how often you play a game and somebody has to win the same child. They're wired to win. What do you want from them? But they need to understand when win. If you win every game, you lose friends, and in life losing friends is a greater loss than losing a game once in a while. Now you're talking their language A little bit. Here's another deal If a person is expressive, there's expressive and attentive right.
Speaker 1:People are talkers, people are listeners. A person's expressive is very fast. From here to here, from head to mouth, is very fast. An expressive person is going through emotional turmoil, will have to express it. Okay, they have to get it out. And a person that's attentive, it takes a while for them to get it out, okay.
Speaker 1:So go to a therapist and you're told oh, the person is, let's say, the husband is very upset about something, okay, and the wife is, and he is like shooting. I mean, he is so upset he's shooting. And the wife says you know, I see you're very upset. I'm going to give you 10 minutes so that you calm down and then we'll discuss it. It only makes it worse If you're that type of a person who takes you 10 minutes to think things over, right. Then you say, okay, I'll give you 10 minutes, but the person who has to get it out and has to just get it, and he's saying, well, you know, that's a lot for another person to take, shooting like that and then just saying things, that's a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, guess what, holding it in is also a lot for a person to take. You just don't. It looks like it's nicer, it looks like it's more menschlich, but that's not necessarily true. Okay, the menschlich light of a person and how nice they are in the refinement, that's a personal thing that you learn about, right. But sometimes we're accused and the children are accused, spouses are, we're accused of something that we're not really guilty of. It's just a style that we need to learn. Someone else has Okay, so the person who has to shoot, they have to let it out.
Speaker 1:And you can say so inappropriate. Would you say that to someone who has to throw up? Hold it in, hold it in, just hold it in until we get to the bathroom. Hold it. That's how somebody to hold it in if they have to let it out. So I call it emotional throw up and I say to people get out of the way. If somebody is has to let it out, and a child also, let them.
Speaker 1:Why would you say to someone hold in the throw up, let them get it out, but don't take it personally. Because if you take it personally is they're throwing up all on top of you. You're standing right under their mouth and you're letting them throw up all over you and now you have complaints. You can get out of the way. They have a harder time because they're going through it. They can't think straight. So get out of the way, don't let them throw it.
Speaker 1:How do you do that emotionally? Don't take it personally. They're going through a hard time, even if you're explained. But right now it's not about you, it's about them. They're going through a hard time and sometimes you have to turn around and say I'm sorry that this happened. You're right, I should have been more careful, I should have been more mindful. And sometimes you have to say you're wrong. This is not. Your reaction is wrong. There was an accident on the road and I couldn't get in touch with you. I tried once, I tried twice. It didn't go through. There was nothing I could do to get here faster. I understand you're upset, but this was something that happened and it was out of my hand, so you're wrong to have.
Speaker 1:The minute you do that to the person who's reacting, they have to start thinking and once you go into your rational head, you will automatically start controlling your emotion. Because maya shalit al-alhalev is a fact the head controls the emotion, meaning you have to go into your rational thinking. You know when you are very riled up, you're also thinking, but you're not into your rational thinking. If you're in your memory thinking, that's not the same as in your rational thinking. But the minute you can say to somebody wait a minute, you're not, you're not right, okay, or that's not the way it happened. They have to start listening. Or you can apologize and say I didn't mean to do this to you. You're still have to. They have to listen, okay.
Speaker 1:So if it's a person who needs time, then don't start. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and you start, then you're going to rile them up much worse. They need time. Give them the time and the space and we'll discuss it in 10 minutes. Now, why are you so upset with me? Come on, so tell me. Why are you so upset? What did I do wrong?
Speaker 3:But could you imagine that one person needs time and the other person wants to talk, so the person that needs time has his time, the other person wants to talk, but yet you have to both understand each other, that's a shidah A good shidah or shidah God bad.
Speaker 2:Is that a?
Speaker 1:shidah or a. This one has to have air conditioning and this one has to have it war, that can't stand the air conditioning and they're both married to each other. Who made that, shidah? And that's the idea. Also, we talk about a wife being an AcerConnect, a crucial in a relationship to have an AcerConnect, because an Acer means a person. That's a helpmate, right? So a helpmate is the support that you get from the other, one who has your back, one who is supporting you in this relationship, and the connegade is when you have to push back and be different and say no, this is not acceptable.
Speaker 1:One must have both in the relationship and with children. Also, it should be like that you have to have with parents. You have to be careful because it's kibbit of air. But an AcerConnect, especially in relationship, it has. That's the way Hashem made it. It cannot be totally Acer Help, help even when they're not doing what's best for them, or connegade against them. You don't value who they are, you don't see their benefit because you're constantly pushing back. No, it doesn't work either way. It doesn't. You need that balance.
Speaker 2:What if you have a relationship where one person is rigid and one person is more flexible? So then is it okay if the flexible person is just super flexible and the rigid person stays pretty rigid because it works for them, or is that not?
Speaker 3:really.
Speaker 2:AcerConnect.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so it's whatever works. Yes, if it works for them, then it works. If it doesn't work for them, now they've got to work.
Speaker 3:Initially going into the relationship, like in the dating process. Should someone look out for somebody that's different to them like opposites attract or should somebody look out for somebody that's similar to them? What would work best bringing out the best in someone because they're different to you or because they're similar to you?
Speaker 1:I think you need both. There needs to be commonality. There must be some kind of commonality. We talk about unconditional love and then you look and you say, how could it be unconditional? You have to have something in common. That's not what unconditional love means. Okay, commonality is necessary, in my opinion. In relationship. People do not speak the same. They have nothing common. They don't speak the same language. Actually they don't speak the same language from background they don't speak. I mean you must have some kind of commonality.
Speaker 1:The chances are, two peas in a pod is very, very. It's almost non-common, it's non-existent. Some people are more different, some people are less different. But nothing should arise within the relationship that there needs to be a back and forth or a compromise. And they're married for 70 years and nothing came up, no compromise in seven. That's not going to. So are some relationships more peaceful than others? Yes, but some people may like that excitement in the relationship, but they don't want it so peaceful. They'd be bored in a peaceful relationship and some people want that peaceful relationship. So I don't think you can anybody can make a blanket segment. This is better than that. That's better. It's a basher thing. It's basher. It's meant to be. Can it work? We can make every relationship work. You can make it work. Is it possible that some people don't want to make it work, or it's abusive and you can't. And I say one can, it is a possible. Does it mean it always works out that way? That's a different story.
Speaker 3:But on the onset, what should someone look for, do you think?
Speaker 1:When people go out, well, first of all, people can say this is what I want. Okay, I want this, and it has to be realistic and simple and not just crazy. I once had this young man say to me he was looking for A very accomplished, gorgeous, remarkable girl and I, very honestly I said did you look in the mirror?
Speaker 3:I know, Sometimes I want to say I'm a matchmaker. Sometimes I want to say that.
Speaker 1:You know what Did you say that to him? Because I didn't say it the first time. It was like what are you coming to me for? I said I can't, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. After a while it was like enough already. I said what are you looking for that for? Are you sophisticated enough, accomplished enough, to marry such a girl? And if you're not, you know what you're asking for. Not going to be a pleasant life. Marry a simpler person and you'll have a pleasant, a much more pleasant life. I mean you, the man has to match up to the you Women have expected.
Speaker 1:It's very interesting, this whole idea of equality. We want to be treated equally, right? I've been through the whole thing, being out on sliffs and all that. We want to be treated equally as women. And then I realized something. But do you want your husband to be smarter than you, earn more money than you, taller than you, older than you?
Speaker 1:Women want more of their spouse than exactly equal. They will not. They don't have as much respect. So it's not fair. Men are not looking for that. If they want it, good, but then I'm going to say looking for something that's more than them. Actually, they don't want it. It's very intimidating to us. Get rid of that Right, very intimidating to them.
Speaker 1:All right, and we say equality, equality, equality. And then what? You're dressed like me, not more and better. It's not true equality. The concept was treat me equally, and we mixed it up by saying I need to be like a man, but I need the mitzvahs of the man. I need to, because it's confusion. That's what happens with dysfunction. You have tremendous amount of confusion. This looks better, this looks equal, this looks, but it's not necessarily so.
Speaker 1:So in the relationship, the language that each one speaks is very, very important, aside from being directive, informative. Also, you grow up in a certain home and your home has its own language and you can say something which would just be funny or nothing, nobody would be offended in your own home. But when you say it in your husband's home or to your husband, it means a totally different thing to him. And now you have to learn each other's language and you never meant that. So, yeah, temperance theory, each one has their own language, and then you have your environment language, and so when you talk about similarities or differences, there needs to be a basis of similarity, there needs to be some kind of commonality, because then what do you fall back on? Okay. On the other hand, many times, if the other one appreciates the difference, Like I said, the guardian and the artisan marriage the artisan is how he likes being married to the guardian, even though at certain times they get frustrated, but overall they like it because the guardian keeps them grounded.
Speaker 1:Okay, because the artisan can be impulsive, so it keeps him grounded Okay. On the other hand, the guardian likes being married to the artisan because it brings fun in their life. They're serious, and now it brings in the fun and the lighter element, so it's nice.
Speaker 3:It can be. When you start to appreciate that, I guess yes, it cannot be. If you're just looking at the differences, that is true.
Speaker 1:That's not going to be late, that is true. But in relationship, if we do not see the gift of the other, then what are we in a relationship for? For my own benefit. So am I abusing them now, even if it's a small thing? Oh, I got into this only for me. So why did I get into a relationship with another human being when they are an absolute person? It's not a pet, it's not a plant, it's not a rock. Okay, this is a human being and I got into a relationship, so they should do as my bidding. Is that slavery? Is this marriage or what? So, if you're getting into a relationship and it's only for me, what am I getting out of it? It's not about relationship, it's about self-gratification. That's not fair.
Speaker 1:So, yes, should I realize that when I say things in a certain way, I'm not being clear? My husband is directive and I'm informative and maybe I need to. Really I'm moving that direction. If I am, you know, so I can learn better how to do it. If I am direct and it's too much, okay, so do I need to accommodate that? You know, if you could tell them the way I talk, I'm very direct, okay, and I have told my children my marriage. I made it very clear my adult children that when I tell you something it's not, it's not, you don't have to do it. Just because I say this is what you should be doing does not mean you have to do it. This is not a command. If I am telling you you have to do something and you, because you have to, I'll say to you this is for an Indian of Kibbutavine. This you need to listen to.
Speaker 3:Okay, and I use that as an example because you're directive let's say, with your older married children.
Speaker 1:I just want to make something very clear, though I will never give them a directive. My adult children do something, bring that direction and say, okay, that they must do for me. For me, the directive will always be for them. You have to go to sleep now, and it's an Indian of Kibbutavine. You're too tired. And I am telling you for Kibbutavine, you have to listen to me and go to sleep right now, because they need to hear. Sometimes they're so overworked you just got to pick them up and put them into their bed. So I'm not saying that that's what I, but usually it'll fall into the category of they just need someone to tell them that stop, you must take care of yourself. But I would never, even though I'm that directive, it will never happen. You must carry the stuff in from the car, and that's Kibbutavine. No, you won't, you won't. We never hear it from me.
Speaker 1:Okay, so so I can sound very directive, but it doesn't mean that a person can be very direct. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily harsh, or at least what they're saying now isn't harsh, they're just. That's the style of talk. Go ahead Now. What do you want to say?
Speaker 3:No, I want to say you brought up older children, like your married children or older children. Let's say there was something. If you're like, if you're a stronger personality, there was something that was triggered by it's a different relationship than a husband and wife, a mother and child, or maybe stronger children too. Yeah, or you can have stronger children too, that they're like oh, I'm triggered by this. But you'd like kind of the question I was asking in the beginning it's wouldn't it be different in a parent-child relationship? Because, as a parent, if you feel your child is triggered, I better stop that completely, although it's not a bad thing, they're just triggered by it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I would be more concerned triggered between spouses than between parent and child. But you don't have to be concerned about the triggers. You just have to be concerned that you're doing this, doing it right or trying your best. You're not going to always get it right, but trying your best. None of the child is triggered. Why Now? Yeah, it could be that when they were younger, whatever, you didn't have the same patience as you have now. It could be when you were younger, you were less mature and your mother in skill weren't as good. All those things could be. So talk about it. Talk about it. They're going to be an adult one day, or they are a parent one day. They're going to go through the same mistakes. It may not be the exact same thing you did, but it's going to follow the same pattern. Who doesn't? But it allows you to be who you are. It's allowing yourself to be who you are with your mistakes also teaches them that they can do the same for themselves, and that is very important.
Speaker 1:In Chisdus and Tanya we learn that the entire role of a lifetime here on earth is what we accomplish with our challenges. It's the work that we do, not the things that were easy In life. Think about growing up. Parents, school, the children that are easier, get much more positive feedback. But Tanya tells us something totally different. The harder it took you, the more work it takes from you. That is the greater accomplishment. Unfortunately, we do not give that feedback and we do not get that feedback. If it comes easy, it doesn't have the same beauty as the beauty of life of struggle. Now, we don't want to struggle, so we ask for blessings. But nevertheless, you see the balance here.
Speaker 1:I don't think avoiding triggers should be a focus for any parent. I think parenting a child at their level and accepting them for who they are and yet teaching them to be the best they can be, is the goal. And will you trigger absolutely? Because if you don't trigger, then you're not demanding of them. Okay, Again, there is a mitzvah of Kibirava aim A child. That is the mitzvah Kibirava aim, non-conditionally. You have to respect your parents. You don't have to agree with them. You don't have to do what they tell you if it hurts you or it doesn't work for you, but you have to be respectful, even if there are triggers. Okay, Now I would advise first of all, find out why there are triggers. What does this trigger?
Speaker 2:Let's just say a child is sensitive and when a parent speaks in a very directive way, it bothers a child. The child will say, mommy, when you tell it to me like that, it's very uncomfortable for me. So it's my job as a parent to be more.
Speaker 1:So tell me, how would you like? Me to say it.
Speaker 2:So let's say, I say, how would you like me to say it? And they say just say it in a much more calm way, tell me exactly how.
Speaker 1:Tell me how I'm saying it now and tell me how you would like me to say it, because you see, I talk the way I talk. You talk the way you talk. We all talk our own way. So now tell me how. But now you're asking me to talk differently than I talk, but this is the way I talk. So tell me what would make it work for you and I will try my best. I cannot promise you because, again, that's like me asking you to do this. I would then absolutely give an example for them to do things the way I talk. So I want you to be very directive now and they'll push back right, no, no, no, but that's not fair. This is the way I talk this, and I'm not talking about cruelty. We're not talking about it. We're talking about style. Right, yeah?
Speaker 3:I'm talking about style, personality, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's all we're talking about. So now to teach them that different people talk differently, it's actually a positive. Now you're saying to me I should talk like this and I will try my best. I really will, but I don't know if I can always do that. Sometimes I'll be tired, sometimes things will happen and then I'll get back to where my regular self. Okay, so let's practice. You talk like me and I talk like you, and then they'll see how hard it is. Okay, then they'll see how hard it is, and sometimes the harder you try, the worse it comes out.
Speaker 2:What if a child comes home and says that there's someone at school who's very cold, and so I'll say it could be that it's that person's style of communication, but for a child that's very hard. What does?
Speaker 1:that mean. It's like how do you know that the child is cold? How do you know? What does that mean that the child is cold?
Speaker 2:She doesn't respond to me when I talk to her, or she smiles at other girls and doesn't won't smile at me.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're going into, oh clicks and you're going into negative behavior.
Speaker 2:It's possibly yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think it's not negative behavior.
Speaker 2:That child's. According to that child, it is negative behavior. The child is experiencing this cold.
Speaker 1:The question is is the child really cold or shy? Is the child shy? Is the child uncomfortable? I don't know what the situation is Now. Let's say, worst case scenario, they're being cold. So you have to teach a child how to handle when someone's cold to you. Okay, don't be a victim, don't become vulnerable. You have to train a child. It may not be the easiest thing, but the reality is that if you train them, they become much stronger and they can see it in a different light. We cannot clean up every situation, but we can make ourselves a healthier person. So, yes, I would have the discussion. I would also have the discussion if there's something the child's doing to add to it. There can be very hurtful situations. Children go through very, very hurtful situations, but having someone that has their back takes care of 75% of the problem at least, or it's apparent that you can go back to. You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Did you want to add something to that? No, no, no, no. It seems like I mean any question. We ask you. You have a lot of wisdom, so we want to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is God's credit, not the you know what. You may have heard this, but a young man went to a wise man and asked him how he became wise. And he says because from experience. He says to him from experience. So he said well, how did you get the experience from making good choices in life? And he said so, how did you know to make the good choices from bad choices in life?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, get to my age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get to my age. You'll be wise. If you don't think, I'm sure you're wise today. But it comes with experience and a lot of mistakes along the way.
Speaker 3:So well, let me just ask you though and I was going to ask you something else, but I want to ask you this about mistakes have you have you forgiven yourself your mistakes. Like how do you forgive yourself?
Speaker 1:I think it's very important to forgive yourself for your mistakes. It's very forgiveness is very important in Judaism. Right, you ask forgiveness three times and the third time it's you don't have to go back again. Okay, If you look at what you've done and you truly sorry about it, you regret it and you make changes in your life. That's great, that's what's expected. That's what is expected of a rush of us, of the masses or whoever. You know what I mean, the people who are not great, so they can To regret, to have remorse and then to change it. I won't do this, you know. You really make every effort not to do it again and if it takes a few times before you really get it through, you get it through.
Speaker 1:But having and forgiving, one has to forgive oneself. I think we're harder on ourselves than Hashem is on us. I really think so, unless we are not hard on ourselves at all, and that's not good. But if there is true growth and maturity and seeing that we made a mistake and, yes, our kids were the recipients of those mistakes, or our spouses or whoever it may be, even our parents, whoever may be, our siblings but you come to a point that you are truly sorry, then God has forgiven you, so you can't forgive yourself. It's hard, it's very, very hard to forgive oneself many times, but you have to, and the reason you have to this is at least the way I see it because then the thing that you did that causes you to have such remorse is viewed very negatively. If you do not forgive yourself, you can't come to terms with it. So let's change a child that that's doing something or it's, I don't know. Give me an example, if you can give me an example. If you don't.
Speaker 3:Let's say, you raised your kids differently when they were younger and you've learned along the way, as you get older, that you would have, let's say, done certain things differently.
Speaker 1:And you've also done differently. Yeah, so forgive yourself, because you will always notice what you did wrong and the child in your eyes has this flaw. Maybe you're the one that caused the stitches. Let's say, let's say you slapped it or whatever. You did something and they had and they have a bruise from it for the rest of their life. Let's just say and if you notice the bruise every single time, then you're not really noticing your child fully. But if you notice your child and you have forgiven yourself, the bruise gets smaller and smaller, even in them.
Speaker 1:You understand what I'm saying. You have to let it go and forgive yourself and see them for the gift that they are, because if you don't, then you'll always notice. You'll always notice the, you'll always notice the flaw and it's not fair. It's not fair to them. You'll at least have kindness for them. It's not fair. It's not fair to yourself. You are a kid and it's of no benefit If you haven't noticed and you have made no change. That's a different story. But that is the goal of a bainony. That's our mission here, that I'm a better person today than I was yesterday. If you can look back 10 years and go, I can't. I can't even recognize myself. Well, thank God for that, okay.
Speaker 3:Thank you for sharing that, and can you share with us in what ways your work has helped you in your personal life and in the lives of other people?
Speaker 1:It has been a tremendous asset. It's helped me and I am very grateful to the Averser, to God, to the gift that he has given me. It's a remarkable gift. Being able to see people for who they are takes away the struggle of Avasisr'al, of love of fellow Jew. I mean, you can see everyone's gift and even when they're not using it right and when they're really not using it right, you have. You have a humanness. You see the talent and yet they're not using it. You know, and usually it's when people it happens, that's when there's a lot of negative behavior, but in everyone it's amazing. Oh, this is the way they are sure. I mean, why are you surprised? Okay, I can see it, I can understand it and even if it's not used 100% well, it doesn't matter. We're human. So when it comes to actually helping people and I explain who they are, they're like blown away. They can't believe how well they're understood when they haven't really told me deep thoughts, and deep, you're just knowing their temperament.
Speaker 1:It's the, it's fun in relationship. It's funny because I can tell them oh, you like touch a lot, but your spouse likes space. Oh boy, you guys have a lot of fun with this. I hope you don't take it personally and they crack up because they know that's exactly what's going on. Okay, they feel rejected because they want to hold their partner and their partner is like give me some space.
Speaker 1:So what happens now? There's rejection and the other one's walking on eggshells and they don't know what each one did. And yet it's just a different need Cause, for this one touches at the top of the list and this one it's at the bottom of the list, right, and so it's not personal and because I can, I know that that that is their need. They haven't even told me that. Okay, that they have this situation, I know because of temperaments, and sometimes I'll say, oh, you've got two different temperaments, but touch is important to both of you. That's fabulous and like, how do you know that? Okay, and it helps so, but it also minimizes the stress of the problem because it they realize it's not what I think it is, it's not personal, it's wiring. You see that. So that has been very, very helpful. But I don't have to. I'm not judging people when I'm working with them.
Speaker 3:But you can know someone's personality and analyze it and still judge with them. How do you get? I just want to know one of your tools of how to get that place.
Speaker 1:I don't. I don't judge. I don't judge with the person. I can judge with the behavior. I can say you know, this is it's silly. You want to do this, it's your choice. But if you want to get out of the situation, this isn't going to work. If you keep doing it like this, I can guide you, I can help you. But if you, sometimes people like being in what they are, even if they're suffering, because that's what's familiar and I can say that to them straight out and it's your choice. But you can't really judge people, because everybody comes from from difficult places. Everyone. Even if it's the best home, it's the best, this, it's the best that they're not coming to me. If it's everything's the best, they're not. They're not asking my guidance. Okay, if everything works, why are they coming to me? Right? If once they're coming to anybody for advice when it's relation, then something isn't working Right and a lot of times it's baggage that came from before and a lot of you can't judge it doesn't.
Speaker 1:What if I was them? What I do differently, with all the mistakes and all the nourish guide and all the silliness and all the foolishness? What if I was exactly them? Would I do different. The chances are no. So okay, I tell my children. I've told my children this one time and I told my children one should never be a victim in life and one should never be a perpetrator. But if you have no choice, be grateful. You're the victim and they go. Really I said would you rather be the perpetrator? Okay, Right.
Speaker 1:So you guys? So judgment. You know what I mean. But is the behavior wrong? Is it unacceptable? Yeah, that could very well be. It could be unacceptable behavior and you're not going to put up with it.
Speaker 3:I just got one little question from the middle of the conversation, when you said and you said that's a shidah, how is the person who's the opposite, who's the one that's meant to make the change, like what? If you know what I'm saying, who's the one that's meant to be like, okay, I'm going to give you your time, and who's the one that's going to say, okay, I'm going to let her talk or let him talk? Do you know what I'm saying? It depends on the need. No, but what if both? Because you're saying both people should be allowed to be who they are, which, if they're allowed to be who they are, how is anything going to be solved if one person's quiet and one person's talking?
Speaker 1:What do you mean? If one person is talking at the same time, that's perfect, because if the person that they're both talking at the same time nobody's listening, well, we're not talking at the same time, but the person that needs their time doesn't want to hear talking.
Speaker 1:Oh, the person who doesn't. So then you have to compromise. Each one has to compromise. You have to. Why do I need my own time right now? Why Is it something that I must have? Because I can't function? Or the person needs space, that's true, but you don't need space all the time. Yeah, in that moment. If you need it in that moment, then you need it, but who?
Speaker 3:maybe the?
Speaker 1:other person needs to talk? Well, maybe. So you have to gauge what's more important.
Speaker 3:You have to gauge who's more important or what's more important.
Speaker 1:You have to gauge. Look each one. This is a relationship. We're focused on each other. This is a relationship. Ok. So if my spouse needs to talk now and I would like my space right now, I can say to myself you know what he really needs. This, I will take my space in 20 minutes. This is what he needs right now. I don't need my space so much right now that I can't hear him.
Speaker 1:But what happens if you can't? I mean, God forbid. You know, you look at when tragedy happens to people, you think that the two, the spouses, would turn and support each other. But many times it causes tremendous negative effect on the relationship because they are both in so much pain that they cannot turn to each other. So that's what you're saying. They're both making noise or they both space. So that's in trauma, that's in, that's in very difficult situations and maybe you need outside intervention and help. But thank God, most of the time we hopefully we don't live like that. So I mean I'm so exhausted because I just had a baby and I have to get my sleep or I have to take care of the baby. I can't listen right now. I have to, OK, but maybe I can, Maybe I can push off my need for my time and my space a half hour, right.
Speaker 3:So you're saying one person should push off their need. One person needs to do it. And the next time the other one does it Right. So you're saying it should be both ways?
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes one doesn't, so how does that start?
Speaker 3:I guess if one of the people see one of the people in the relationship, see that the other one has worked on themselves to to accommodate, then maybe the next time they will.
Speaker 1:The more supportive you are in in mature situations and most situations the more mature you are towards the other. They will reciprocate. Or you can say you know, I need this. You're talking about, you know, mature people. The problem happens If eight to 18 years of bottling things up, bottling things up, we're not understanding each other, you come to such frustration that one says I've always given them the time, I've always listened, and the other one says, no, I've been the one that has always given you the time, because they bottomed it up, they didn't really have good communication. Ok, so now you also need some intervention to say look, are you really seeing this correctly? Right, and explain it. Just like triggers, just like a child you know the other child is cold to me you have to go through it and say is this correct? Is this correct? And that's why, when the other one talks about the concept of a musthia, you know you think of going for therapy and this and sometimes people look at as negative.
Speaker 1:Today, not so much, but 60 percent of the population are within the range of norm. You can have very healthy 20, very unhealthy 20. But within the norm is the 60. You need guidance. Situations come up. Go for guidance. Go for a musthia or go for someone that you can trust. The rabbi there was always. You went to the rabbi, you went to the rabbi. You went to somebody your mother, your father you go for guidance. Ok, that's very important, yeah.
Speaker 2:Is there like a practical tool or tip or strategy or intervention, something that you use in your practice with people that you see?
Speaker 3:that that you can recommend Is a tip on how to you can be yourself and also accommodate and also like you're able to shine in who you are and also be able to give and hear the other person that you're within the relationship.
Speaker 1:So the first thing I think one thing is very important is to listen and to not make up your own story. While somebody is talking to you, we, we very quickly go into our own perception of things and we start assuming that this is what they meant. Ok, very important to listen, because they're telling you something and what they're telling you is what it is. It makes sense to you, doesn't make sense. You have the most important. I think it's very important to listen, then you can go into understanding analysis. Ok, so that's one thing. The other thing is don't move in To taking things personally unless you know for sure that this was meant to hurt you. Ok, somebody says something to me and then I assume something Is that true? So that is that true. It right? We are told to be done with house close. To be done with house close Doesn't mean give them the benefit of the doubt. That's, if there is a doubt, you must give them the benefit. You, that's according to Allah. What do you mean? You're assuming that they did a wrong when they didn't. So if there is a doubt, you must give them the benefit. That's not in Judaism that they give them the benefit of the doubt. Of course don't. Look house close means you judge them to merit. There must be something positive here. Maybe they're going through a hard time, maybe this, maybe that, but you come up with a positive here. Don't judge them for negative. Don't assume that they're angry at you or something happened, whatever. Assume a positive. I'll give you an example. A woman comes over to me and she says to you I owe you an apology. I said not that I know of she goes. I really do owe you an apology. I said please don't tell me because I don't know what you owe me apology for. So why tell me? Ok, I said. But I said here's the deal when somebody walks by me I don't know why this came out of my mouth but somebody walks by me and ignores me. I don't think that they have something. I don't assume that they have something against me. I automatically think they must be going through a hard time or something happened today, or they're distracted because companies coming in from out of town, whatever it may be. So there's nothing. I don't know what happened or what you did, but there's nothing to apologize for because I did, you know. Ok. So she says you know, that's exactly what happened. I walked by you and I was going through a very hard time and I didn't say hello and I'm the revincenso, you know. Ok, and she held on to that for a few years Before she came to apologize, or a few months, or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:But I will tell you an interesting story. I was standing by the Revlon once, and as you go into that first room, you know the hallway or whatever the foyer when they would go to Minchai. We had come in from out of town and I brought the kids and I wanted them to see the Revlon. So we were standing online. The kids were in the front row. As the Revlon would walk out, the kids would be in the front, they'd get their coin and they put in the push cut.
Speaker 1:And I'm standing either one or two rows behind there, more people and as we're waiting for the Revlon, this woman turns around. I have no idea who she is, but there was something wrong with her face. I don't even remember what, but there was something really wrong with her face and I thought, oh my gosh, to have a face like that and the door opens and the Revlon comes out. So now you're totally distracted. You're not thinking of that anyway, and there was given coins and there were okay.
Speaker 1:And there it goes in from Minchai and we all turn to leave. And as I hit the steps I thought to myself wait a minute, I'm standing here before the Revlon. That's what I'm thinking about. That's all I noticed was what was wrong with her face. She may have had beautiful eyes, maybe she saved the life, maybe she's a wonderful person. That's all I noticed. And this is the way I came to the Revlon. It bothered me terribly and I made a hachalata that I made a resolution. I cannot control my first thought, but when I see people I will look for something positive to say.
Speaker 1:I love the color of your sweater, that's a pretty ring, I will find something. Okay, you have very pretty eyes, something, it doesn't make a difference. I will look for a compliment and say it. Maybe a half year goes by and a woman says to me you know, every time I see you, you always say something nice to me. And I thought to myself little, do you know that you did me a bigger kindness than I did to you, because now I know that it's part of me. Okay, so it takes. It takes work to do that. Well, what takes work? Everything else, it just happens.
Speaker 3:But now it's become a part of you. So is that the dominant part of you, or is this just something that you were Bring it all together?
Speaker 1:It's the same me who had to take a weakness and strengthen it and turn it around Okay. So would I have done that if I had had the weakness? You know what I mean. So it's work, it's work. And every time now it's you know, it's work, it's good, it's good. Okay, so should I not forgive myself? No, I did something with it, I did something positive.
Speaker 3:Okay, need a phone.
Speaker 2:Okay, so should we riff got any more questions before we wrap up? I've got.
Speaker 3:I could go on and on, but we took up a lot of your time, okay.
Speaker 2:So we love to to wrap up with a um, either a quote or a party message that resonates with you. If you can share one with us, I love.
Speaker 1:Sidus, I love Tanya. It's such a remarkable, remarkable, uh, safer, such a remarkable gift. They all told us. And what you see as we learn, tanya, is that by God, we matter, we matter, we matter, no matter. To me, that is so remarkable. Yes, we could make our mistakes. Yes, we are a rush of it, tavily. Yes, you know, we have remorse and we correct ourselves, and that gives God so much pleasure.
Speaker 1:The question is, why would God create this world? Why couldn't he made it easier? Why not all of us be bain in him? Why not most of us be bain in me At least, if not saddicum bain in me? Why?
Speaker 1:But when do you know that the relationship matters? When do you know that the love is unconditional? Not when you're doing what I want you to do because I'm getting nachos out of it. How do you know it's not self gratification? But when you see in somebody your child, your spouse, your parent okay, they're not doing your sibling what do you really want them to do? And you love them anyway because they matter. They matter, no matter. When do you find out how much someone matters to you Is when they're not doing what you want.
Speaker 1:And this is such a great gift from the Averster. We matter, no matter. Can we do that for others? Growing up by the Rebbe? His face would shine when he saw us as children and we would, all of us. We just wanted to be the person that it ever saw in us. But they ever saw us, didn't see our flaws. When that, were you remarkable. If we could do that, if we could feel that that that's the way the Averster looks at us. Yes, you have to work. Yes, you have to do what you have to do. Yes, there is a mission. It's the gift that it doesn't matter how I become and what I do, but he trusts I'll get there with my mistakes. He trusts me with all my mistakes. I'll tell you a cute story and then I'll finish off. My father, who I have tremendous respect for and I have a huge debt of gratitude for what he's given me in life, at one point felt that I was not disciplining one of my children correctly.
Speaker 3:And he Can I ask you?
Speaker 1:how many children do you have? Nine, nine, thank God. They're all coming with the kids, the grandkids, and nine hara.
Speaker 3:Well.
Speaker 1:Anyway, yes. So I said to him. I said, Todd, this is for me, this is my job. I said to him, it's my job to discipline my child. He says, but I don't think you're doing this correctly. I said, yeah, but the Averster gave me this trial, so he's trusting me. So the Averster trusts me Even with my mistakes, and he's smiling. He just sort of gave up. So I'm like you think you're gonna? That's the point. That is the point. We have to work. We have to. That's love. Be the best you can be and put all that work in and learn from your mistakes. And there is room for growth until 120. That is remarkable, but you matter. No matter. Forgive yourself and move towards goodness.